sinope: a hundred thousand fireflies (A hundred thousand fireflies)
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This is for all the nice guys out there. I love you all, and I know you mean the best, and I know you want the women around you to feel happy and safe. Well, this is one part of how to achieve that. Unfortunately, it's a part that I see being violated all the time -- and trust me, guys, most of the times when it happens, you'll never hear about it.

Situations that mean you can touch a woman:
  • When you have her clear and informed permission.


Situations that do NOT mean you can touch a woman:
  • When you've done that activity with her in the past.
    ("But you wanted me to give you a hug last week!")

  • When it's an "innocent" touch.
    ("I was only giving you a shoulder rub!")

  • When she lets other people touch her in that way.
    ("But Joe rubbed your feet five minutes ago!")

  • When she sees you touching other women in that way.
    ("I was already tickling Mary and Suzy, so you knew I was heading over to you.")

  • When she has the ability to tell you to stop.
    ("If you didn't like it when I started, you could have said so!")

  • When she let you touch her in a different way.
    ("We were making out already; touching your breasts was the obvious next step!")

  • When you're sure that she would enjoy it.
    ("Doesn't every girl like it when a guy goes down on them?")

  • When she'd expressed general interest in it in the past.
    ("You said that a threesome might be fun sometime!")

  • When the element of surprise would make things more fun.
    ("Telling you that I was about to kiss you would ruin the romance of it!")


What's clear and informed permission?
  • It's an unmistakable yes. (A shrug or absence of "no" doesn't count.)

  • It's given with complete knowledge of what she's agreeing to.

  • It's given by someone who is fully capable of making decisions (e.g. not drunk, high, asleep, or hypnotized).
    • Edited to add: I'm NOT saying that all sex while intoxicated or hypnotized is non-consensual! As long as you've pre-negotiated the boundaries of what she would be willing to do while her judgment is impaired, you're golden. What I'm saying is that something previously off the table can't be consented to while she's not thinking clearly.


  • It can be nonverbal. When she extends her hand for a handshake, or opens her arms for a hug, or leans in for a kiss, that's nonverbal permission.

  • It can be given in advance (e.g. "I would love for you to wake me up with oral sex one morning!"). This only counts if she specifically intends to be giving you blanket future permission.

  • It can be ongoing. ("I always like getting hugs from you!")

  • It can go away at any point she chooses. If she says "stop," that means you no longer have permission. If she looks unhappy or uncomfortable, check in with her and ask her how she's doing.


Questions and Answers

Q: I'm a heterosexual dude, but I'm a nice guy! You're talking about sleazebags, right?
A: Nope, I'm talking about you too. Being a "nice guy" doesn't mean you get to touch women without their permission. In fact, if you're a nice guy, I'm more likely to want to spend lots of time with you, which puts me in a difficult position when you do things like this. I avoid spending time with sleazebags to begin with.

Q: I've kissed/hugged/backrubbed lots of girls without getting their permission first. They've never complained, and I would have stopped if they did. Isn't this a bit extreme?
A: Yes, there are certainly situations (maybe the majority of them, even!) where you can predict a woman's reaction without asking permission. But there are three other possibilities to consider. First is the worst-case scenario: many women, particularly abuse survivors, can be triggered into a very bad mental space by unwanted touches. Risking causing that to someone you like is just cruel. Second, because women are socialized to avoid "rocking the boat," it's very common for us to go along with something even though we're uncomfortable or unhappy -- because we don't want to cause a scene, because we don't want to upset the guy, because we're used to putting up with discomfort. Third, even if we completely love what you're doing, when you do it without asking permission, we start to wonder what else you might do to us without asking our permission. Anyway, if asking a girl "may I kiss you?" would make her say "no," then she clearly didn't want to kiss you that much in the first place.

Q: Oh, crap. I'm a guy, and I do those things sometimes. Do all my friends think I'm a rapist?
A: Congratulations! I'm honestly thrilled that you're willing to examine and critique your own behavior. That's the most important step. I don't know what your friends think of you, but a good first step is to find a female friend, tell her that you're concerned that you've been unintentionally offending people, and ask her what you can do differently. (Yes, I would be happy to be that friend, if I see you in regular social situations.)

Q: Aren't you being sexist? There are creepy women who hit on guys, and there are guys who get pushed into uncomfortable situations.
A: Of course there are. Partly, picking fixed genders made the pronouns in this discussion easier. But the presence of male privilege in our society makes this a particularly gender-specific issue. It makes men less aware of their impositions on women, and it makes women less comfortable with speaking up and saying "I don't want you to do that."

Q: I have Asperger's/I'm on the autism spectrum. You seem to expect me to know nonverbal cues that are difficult for me to read. Aren't these rules unfair to people like me?
A: More difficult? Sometimes. Unfair? No. Your friends have (hopefully) learned that nonverbal emotional signs are challenging for you, and they'll understand if you don't pick up on them. The thing to remember is that asking for clear verbal permission is never a bad idea. From "May I hug you?" to "May I kiss your breasts?", an explicit request for permission is always a good way to make sure everyone is comfortable with what's happening.

Q: You say I should ask verbal permission, but didn't that get a guy in big trouble recently?
A: Good question. Really, we're dealing with two separate issues. The first issue is whether it's appropriate even to broach the subject of touching a woman. Just like you shouldn't ask a random waitress if you could kiss her, you shouldn't ask an acquaintance (alone, in an enclosed space, when she's indicated the desire to go to sleep) for sex. Unfortunately, that issue is beyond the bounds of this discussion, since it relies on a number of variables like tone, environment, past encounters with the woman, her nonverbal and verbal cues, etc. I'm not saying that asking to touch a woman is always okay! The key point I'm trying to make is that even if all indicators are positive, you still always need to ask.
There are 11 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [personal profile] ex_rising236 at 10:26pm on 24/07/2011
Plus one million (here via Liz Fong on G+).

Also, want to bring up that a lot of the time, women seem to think it can be appropriate to hug/touch/kiss another woman (or even someone who is genderqueer, or male!) without permission, or with less explicit permission. It's less often regarded as an invasion of privacy than it is if a man is initiating the action, as well, which is something I just don't understand and don't get.
sinope: a hundred thousand fireflies (A hundred thousand fireflies)
posted by [personal profile] sinope at 10:43pm on 24/07/2011
Absolutely! Permission is always, always important, regardless of the combination of genders involved. (Or, for that matter, with animals -- petting pets or service animals without explicit consent from their owner is also Not Okay.)

I think that the reason I focused on guys touching women without permission is that (at least in my personal experience), while women may be more likely to hug other women without asking, I personally feel more uncomfortable when my space is being violated by a hetero man, thanks to the long history of male violence against women. There's a certain level of sexualization there that makes it particularly squicky, even with touches that aren't specifically sexual.

But I really appreciate you pointing out that it's certainly not a one-sided problem. Thanks for stopping by!
silverhare: drawing of a grey hare (avatar - katara [stretch towards sun&sea)
posted by [personal profile] silverhare at 11:46pm on 24/07/2011
Indeed. I felt prickly and uncomfortable just reading about the Situations that do NOT mean you can touch a woman because it was mildly triggering, so someone actually doing that would cause Bad Headspace for me.

(This is not intended as a criticism of the OP, rather as support for what ze is saying about the triggers that abuse survivors experience.)
sinope: a hundred thousand fireflies (A hundred thousand fireflies)
posted by [personal profile] sinope at 02:01pm on 25/07/2011
Thank you for your support! I am a little concerned about your comment about being mildly triggering; I had already been debating whether to put a trigger warning on the top of the post. Do you think it merits one?
 
posted by [personal profile] alwayswaitingforspring at 03:51pm on 25/07/2011
As a "survivor" of abuse, there is so much about this article that I find problematic.

The idea that as a woman I should be given special consideration is basely offensive. If I am treated differently because I have a vagina, I am unhappy. If I am treated differently because I have experienced rape, or because I have experienced physical abuse, I am even more unhappy.

This article operates under the assumption that abuse victims must be accomodated. This results in the unfortunate implication that we are less whole than people who have not experienced such things. That somehow, my ability to state my own boundaries has been diminished, and that men should therefore treat me (and apparently, everyone else of my gender) differently. I would much prefer to be treated as a whole, rational human being.

I've never met anyone who would prefer to be treated as a victim.
sinope: a hundred thousand fireflies (A hundred thousand fireflies)
posted by [personal profile] sinope at 04:21pm on 25/07/2011
Thank you for your thoughtful feedback.

I do regret if this sounded like I was asking for special treatment for women (let alone for abuse survivors!). For what it's worth, I'm writing as someone who identifies as a woman but not an abuse survivor, and these are considerations that I would want for myself. Also, as another commenter pointed out, nonconsensual touching can be a problem with women touching other women or men. My post focused on this particular gender combination for the reasons I mentioned above, but I did not intend to imply that it's a way that women or abuse victims/survivors should be treated differently from men, and I'm sorry if it sounded like that.

The reason I brought up the possibility of abuse is that my friends who're abuse survivors (one of whom beta-read this post) often (not always!) have particularly negative memories associated with unwanted touches. But that was only a side possibility to my main point: you don't know how violating someone's personal space will make them feel, so it's more respectful toward all people to ask permission.

Some people are uncomfortable with being touched in certain ways. This can derive from any number of factors of personality, past experiences, situation and environment, etc. Respecting that range of possibilities doesn't require treating everyone I meet as a victim. It just means striving to base my behavior on my knowledge of their specific preferences, which I can only know if I ask.
etana: Cupcake in pink wrapper with rainbow above frosting head (Default)
posted by [personal profile] etana at 04:45pm on 25/07/2011
Couple of things:

1. Why the scare quotes around survivor as a descriptor? It's a common adjective used to describe folks who aren't viewing themselves as victims of assault and/or trauma. In fact I identify as a survivor, not out of some need to attain socially-correct linguistic status, but rather because I thrive in spite of what has occurred in my life. Make sense? Please help me understand why that's a negative and worthy of scare quotes?

2. I didn't read this article as geared at survivors at all. I believe that our personal experiences provide a lens through which we view things, written or otherwise, and perhaps that's what's happening here. Rather, I believe this post addresses the social inequalities that do in fact exist between men and women and how men can help be better allies to women with regards to respect of personal autonomy. This is important regardless of whether someone is a survivor, victim, or not.

And if you claim inequalities do not exist between men and women, then we have not much else to talk about - considering it's a fundamental position of how I and allies working to built sexually empowered yet safe and consensual spaces operate. Not only that, but privilege exists within ability, socio-economic status, race, age, etc.etc.etc.
 
posted by [identity profile] snarke.livejournal.com at 05:21am on 26/07/2011
"Scare quotes?" I'm sorry, but there's no such thing as "scare quotes." Quotation marks are just that: indicators that the person writing is referencing something originally written (or spoken) by somebody else. The use of quotation marks in this message is not intended to frighten anybody. They are used (the first time) to indicate that I am referencing somebody else's text. I used them again because I am not willing to take responsibility for using the term. I think it's silly.

AlwaysWaiting quoted the term the first time to indicate that she was specifically calling out a word used by Sinope. However, afterwards, she dropped the quotes because AlwaysWaiting was perfectly willing to use that term herself, and did so.
sinope: a hundred thousand fireflies (Default)
posted by [personal profile] sinope at 11:19am on 26/07/2011
I'm sorry, but there's no such thing as "scare quotes."

I'm sorry, but there is. It's a slightly-informal term for a specific rhetorical use of quotation marks, in which they distance the speaker from the term used; as the Wikipedia article notes, they appear (by that name!) in the Chicago Manual of Style and other formal references.

My original post included both the words "survivor" and "abuse." By using the phrase "'survivor' of abuse," AlwaysWaiting indicated specific dissatisfaction with the term "survivor."

AlwaysWaiting quoted the term the first time to indicate that she was specifically calling out a word used by Sinope. However, afterwards, she dropped the quotes because AlwaysWaiting was perfectly willing to use that term herself, and did so.

No, actually, she didn't. "Survivor" only appeared within scare quotes in her comment; elsewhere she used "abuse victims," which is a term with different connotations.
 
posted by [identity profile] snarke.livejournal.com at 12:39pm on 26/07/2011
Oh, dear. I'm sorry too. I'm very sorry that the phrase "scare quotes" exists in this world. My Chicago Manual is the 13th, so it doesn't contain that reference.
lilysea: Books (Books)
posted by [personal profile] lilysea at 12:15am on 28/07/2011
Thank you for this post. ^_^

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